Anybody else tired of this?!

[happyrobyn]

It was totally cool the first time I saw it. It was still pretty neat after the 100th time. But now that I've seen it thousands of times, it's starting to get old. What is it I speak of? Lifted up photo edges. Here's (http://www.digishoptalk.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=89647) an example of what I'm talking about. It only took me the first page of the gallery to find an example. LOL!

[Nevermore]

Dear Robyn, I think you will continue to see this and many other things like it until digital scrappers get comfortable being digital.

When I first started digital scrapping I didn't do paper and had never seen it. When I first saw paper scrapping, I thought that even the bad paper stuff was better than faux digital paper scrapping. And real good paper scrapping blows faux digital paper scrapping out of the ballpark. Just being honest.

I think fantastic digital is just that: digital. It is a different art form than paper. I have been on this hobby horse for so long it is about time to put the poor animal to sleep. I have no clue why people would make themselves crazy trying to make pixels look like paper. If you want paper, get it. Another way of looking at it is that there are digital artists. They don't go insane trying to make their digital art be an oil painting. I daresay if they wanted to be oil painters, they would pick up a brush and canvas. I have no clue why this basic concept is so foreign to digital scrapping. I simply don't get it. To the point where I just can't stand discussions of scanned ribbons vs. hand drawn ribbons. Hello. They are pixels folks. Pixels. You heard it here first.

Another example is ATCs. I love my digital ATCs. I don't love the ones I print out and swap. I love the swap. I like getting them. But they are, in the end, not what they are designed to be. They are digital first and foremost. They can be tarted up on paper but it is not the same piece. I have learned the hard way that if I am going to do a piece for a swap, I have to start from an entirely different premise and head space because much of what I do that looks good on the monitor or the web simply does not look as good in print. Anyone who has printed out a 12 x 12 layout that seems darling as a 125K thumbnail and had a heart attack with the staples the size of logs and font at billboard size knows exactly what I am talking about.

I could go on... and probably should because I don't see anything wrong with printing out etcetera, and I daresay I have not gone into enough detail. My rant is with this obsession to make the layout seem as if it was done with paper. I think digital layouts have their own worth, their own set of rules, their own possibilities. Their own merit and it is NOT how they compare to a similiar layout made with real life elements. In my never humble opinion, they will fail in this comparison every time. If the measure of excellence is not whether or not they look like paper, then we can do some interesting evaluations and comparisons if the need is even there (I don't know, call me a philistine but I never sit around discussing whether a painting is better or worse than a photograph. I think it is a silly discussion.) But until all these "painters" stop trying to make their "paintings" look like a "photograph", you are going to see all of these effects and more. The worse thing is that it is so restrictive. Imagine if every painter on the planet refused to do any style other than say a Bateman. Imagine the art galleries. The churches. The lobbies. The boredom.

I am not going to lie to you--I have read a request for how you would make a digital glue dot. Please.

[SteinwaysMom]

Kim, I've asked my self the same question about faux-paper...I mean I've spent weeks learning to design faux paper looking products....it's sort of an obsession...I just love the look of it...my inner diginerd is obsessed with learning how to create realistic tape, stitches, you name it...

The best stuff IMO is scanned/photographed and then digitally manipulated...which can take hours but for some reason I feel driven to do it...

To be honest I suck at designing kits - really I have no interest in them - there is a huge interest in standalone slightly quirky elements so I'm really happy to focus on that...

Just wait, scrapping is very trend driven so someone will eventually up the ante on the bent photo craze and everyone will jump on the bandwagon and we will have something new to get tired of looking at. :o

[DeniseD]

Snorting here. :)

[Pixeldigger]

I quite like the effect and if you want a page like that, then it's fine. After all, if that were done on paper, the photo edges would be flat as soon as you put the page in an album or framed it, so digital works better in this case. Anyone who looks at my pictures knows that I don't use a lot of elements, I just do what suits ME and that is what everyone should be doing. If you like the effect, use it. If you don't like it, don't use it.

If you are seeing a lot of turned photo edges, maybe it is just in fashion at the moment, soon something else will come along to take its place and then we will see a lot of that. The joy of being a Quirk is that we don't have to follow fashion, in fact, we don't want to, that helps to make us what we are.

[graybonnie]

Yahoo... this is fun... a robyn, a raven and a bunny... it has been a long time ladies since you three had a discussion like this.

I have never used or even wanted to use a flipped edge on a photo.

[Nevermore]

Ticked off, wrote a long post (again) and it got deleted before it got sent. Post was to thank Bonnie for her link to excellent, informative, readible article on the American Primitives. Thanks Bonnie!

[Pixeldigger]

Don't feel ticked off, just quirk it!

[happyrobyn]

Yahoo... this is fun... a robyn, a raven and a bunny... it has been a long time ladies since you three had a discussion like this.
I was thinking the same thing. I miss you guys!!

[Nevermore]

What's not to miss? Lol. I am finding it interesting trying to go outside the box while staying inside it a la my crew duties at SBG. This week's blog was using a template: straight, a little crazier and quirked.

I agree with Judith, do what you want. But Dear Ms. Robyn, I do have to ponder your conflict. On the one hand, seeing anything more than a few times is tiresome. On the other, I would think as a selling designer that you want as many people as possible using your stuff! There is no way that the average scrapper is going to individualise every element (kinda defeats the purpose of buying kits, really) or blend every paper or recolour every stitch. Aren't you and your ilk (chuckling happily, I hardly ever get to write stuff like "you and your ilk") the very cause of what is tiring you? I daresay I would yawn if I saw a la femme crown perched jauntily on every head (much as I yawn when I see wings put on things. I am beyond bored with winged children. I might be amused by winged elephants, maybe, or wombats or turtles.)

What is the poor scrapper to do? This feeds into the Bunny's observations on pimping kits. I have to agree with Becky. The CTs are supposed to promote.

If you guys (the "you and your ilk" crowd) wanted to really rock the boat you would sell limited edition stuff. Ie. only twenty available. That's it. That would give the scrapper uber novelty power. But I bet it wouldn't satisfy your pocketbooks (or ours because you would have to charge way more and it still probably wouldn't be enough).

[kygirl]

Okay, Robyn, I'll bite. ;) Yes, I'm tired of lifted corners, but I use them in my CT work. I don't care if they're on other people's layouts, I'm just tired of them on mine.

I'm also tired of little pictures in corners with no text (though Becky will fight me on this one), torn cardboard, lots of buttons (don't hate me, Kim) , and yes, even winged babies. What's funny is that a lot of these trends were influenced by the people who hang out here.

We encouraged people to step outside the box; we just didn't know they were going to step into ours. LOL

[Vania16]

I'm still liking the effect, but I think I'll tire of it soon LOL Honestly for me they're an easy way to give a layout a little pop and since I've been kinda swamped lately they came at the perfect time - slap one of those babies on a layout and away you go, you know? I think it's just another of those things that start out cool and different and eventually got overdone.

[happyrobyn]

If you guys (the "you and your ilk" crowd) wanted to really rock the boat you would sell limited edition stuff. Ie. only twenty available. That's it. That would give the scrapper uber novelty power. But I bet it wouldn't satisfy your pocketbooks (or ours because you would have to charge way more and it still probably wouldn't be enough).
First of all ... I must say that I had to resort to looking up "ilk" to make sure I was understanding it correctly! LOL! It is now my new favorite word. May make a good kit name ... "Me and my ilk!" Limited edition, of course!!! ROFL!

I agree with your observations Kim. Guess I need to get off of my high horse and realize that I am facilitating this trend deal. OH NO :eek: !!!!

But not to worry ... I had a little puzzle brewing and this whole Limited Edition talk has the monkeys on stand-by! Stay tuned ... (those of you in any of my last 3 month ATC swaps!) Evil laugh!!!!

[webchyck]

come on...you gotta admit that this winged baby is pretty darned cute:

http://www.scrapbookgraphics.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=8157&limit=last1

[happyrobyn]

Yep - she's a cutie!!

[kygirl]

Well, how about this one (http://www.digishoptalk.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=79403&cat=all&ppuser=191)? LOL

[webchyck]

Awwww...cute. I actually saw a thread at DST where this lady pointed people to her blog to rant about things in the scrap-o-sphere that offended her delicate sensibilities. She just despised wings on babies because "we don't turn into angels when we die. Angels aren't humans!" Well...duh! But doesn't she know that babies are little fairies left on earth for us to care for by the pixies and leprechauns? Sheesh! Just take all the fun out of life! She also didn't like 4 leaf clovers or the word "luck" or "lucky." Sigh...I walked away.

[kygirl]

Becky, I read the same thread. I typed a four-paragraph response, and then tossed it. A mind that narrow isn't going to change just because you throw reason at it. ;)

[SteinwaysMom]

Becky, I read the same thread. I typed a four-paragraph response, and then tossed it. A mind that narrow isn't going to change just because you throw reason at it. ;)

And I was going to spout off about how much I hate Leprechaun's and 4 leaf clovers anyway (do we have a barf smiley?)....but as a designer I don't want to offend the St. Paddy's lovin crowd....:D

As a new designer I am kind of trend watching and checking out the commercial side of things...and I must admit I did a set of lifted edge frames and by God they sold, yep I actually had money coming into my paypal, what a novel concept after spending a year and well over a grand on this hobby...my latest product features...ripped cardboard! Yes it's still popular believe it or not...people post threads at DST saying they are positively addicted to the stuff.

Things also seem very personality driven in traditional scrapping - people go gaga over certain designers and seem to spend inordinate amounts of time going on about their newest products, showing previews and hyperlinks...followed by hoards of fans who gleefully agree that said product/designer is just fabulous...again I wonder if this is a 20 something phenomenon cuz even though I admire and respect a number of designers I don't have this tabloid style fascination with them...Then of course you get to feeling like you're back in high school and terminally unpopular, ugh!

Anyway...just my observations from the non-quirk angle...

[SteinwaysMom]

Kim, you will get a kick out of this...

What to do with the 'hole' when making a digital eyelet (http://www.digishoptalk.com/boards/showthread.php?t=42193)

Now I have to say that as much as I love faux paper I really could care less...

[kygirl]

Debra, this thread struck me as so absurd that I have tears running down my face I've laughed so hard. A whole thread devoted to holes! I can't stand it....

[SteinwaysMom]

Debra, this thread struck me as so absurd that I have tears running down my face I've laughed so hard. A whole thread devoted to holes! I can't stand it....

Wow, they're really getting serious about this...I say make it an animated gif that displays an eyelet image and then Kim pops out of it with a miniature raven on her shoulder that screeches 'HAVEN'T YOU HEARD? PAPER IS DEAD!!!'

[kygirl]

You're too funny. I can just picture it.

[Diginellie]

I guess I am one of the `who cares' brigade. Whatever floats your boat. I have noticed that some digiscrappers are very insecure, uncertain, call it what you like, but they only want to do what everyone else is doing. Just like teenagers with fashion - they haven't developed a personal style so they copy. People do the same with interior design. Some people just aren't brave enough to stand out from the crowd and they really don't want to. I appreciate any work of art that someone has put time and some of their heart and soul into even if it is like so many others. A quick look through the Gallery here will show that we are trend driven as well - we can't help but be influenced by others, that is good and bad I guess. I love being exposed to the talents and ideas of others but maybe sometimes I shoulsd take a break and just let myself go a bit more. :)

I am into Week one of Julia Cameron's `The Artist's Way' - so I am very focused on creativity right now

[ScrapAlice]

Someone in that thread said she stuck a tag onto the paper with *virtual glue*. What in the world is THAT? I get a huge laugh from some who worry about all these tiny things that in the big picture of life mean absolutely nothing.

Bottom line for me: did I have fun doing it? Ok, then, makes me happy!

[Nevermore]

I have to say I certainly have missed this soapbox. I truly do understand what motivates the Hyde Park crowd!

I would much rather be having this discussion over a latte, though. It is hard to communicate this way!

Firstly, it is important to understand that I am going against traffic so to speak. I have never paper scrapped or done paper arts but I am getting heavily invested into it.

Thus, I came to digital with a "clean slate". I did a number of layouts before I knew you could buy kits. At no time in my early days did I understand the issue (and some would claim I haven't learned much, lol). From day one I thought if you want it to look like paper, buy paper. Otherwise, get over it. That is not to say I do not appreciate and use real elements. I do. I do! They are neat. I like them. I just don't care how they were made as long as I like them. Like them visually. For what they do for my piece. Not because my half blind aunt would think they were real if I printed them out. To me, having paper simulation as the gold standard of digital scrapping would be the same as having all painting be judged as follows: That is a masterpiece, it looks just like a photo. The idea is ridiculous.

I repeat. I like realistic elements and use them. But I don't judge them on the basis of their realism or whether or not they would fool anybody or whether or not they could be used in real life scrapping. I think that this is just nutty. I also think that there is serious self delusion going on. A faux paper digital layout is a pale imitation of a real paper layout. It is not even close. Sorry folks. As far as I am concerned you can hand paint your drop shadows with cat whiskers and an Intuos Graphire at 1600 magnification and guess what? It still ain't 3D. A 2 year old can stick two pieces of paper together with spit and the drop shadow thus created is always going to outshine yours.

This does not address the question of digital scrapping as an art and craft in its own right that should have its own standards of excellence. If I didn't think the thing had merit, I wouldn't be here.

I think that those standards of excellence should not include style dictations. I don't believe any style is inherently good or bad. I would start at the beginning and work my way to principles and guidelines (I have been doing this on and off in my blog because this truly interests me) that define digital scrapping as a unique form (being it art or craft). There are definitely faux paper style layouts that are excellent. What is keeping me glue dotted to the soapbox is the heavy hand with with this style is ruling the art form.

Donna, it is grossly unfair to link to cute photos of Max with wings.

[Nevermore]

Tandika Star would suggest a virtual staple like so:
[[[[[[[[[[[[[ or if you prefer ]]]]]]]]]]]]]]

This could be expanded to glue dots:
00000000000000000000000000000000

stitching:
-----------------------------
with holes:
-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o

and if you cared to use the "insert character" windows feature, a baby o within a capital o would give you your virtual rivet. For the back of the virtual piece, the smashed down rivet could be **************

We have virtual mesh: ################ too.

I feel a layout coming on...

[digime]

I'm in the "who cares" category here too. My feeling is that it doesn't really matter who's doing what, as long as they're having fun being creative. I once heard Claudine Helmuth say that scrapbooking has been good for so many women as it's been a way for us to start exploring our creativity without feeling the need to be an "artist". Some people are more comfortable than others with colouring outside the lines, but at least they're colouring...and having fun with it. I think that's the most important thing for all of us.

Paper, digital, shadows, lifts, buttons, bows, wings and crowns...it all boils down to personal preference with no right or wrong! I'm with Alice here - did I have fun doing it?

[SteinwaysMom]

I would much rather be having this discussion over a latte, though. It is hard to communicate this way!

A faux paper digital layout is a pale imitation of a real paper layout. It is not even close. Sorry folks. As far as I am concerned you can hand paint your drop shadows with cat whiskers and an Intuos Graphire at 1600 magnification and guess what? It still ain't 3D. A 2 year old can stick two pieces of paper together with spit and the drop shadow thus created is always going to outshine yours.

I would much rather fly to Toronto and discuss this over a latte. Alas, my friends time and money are lacking...

I know what you are getting at - the best photorealism or 'trompe l'oeil' is still an illusion. However I've seen many paper layouts that seem rather awkward an uninteresting compared with their digital counterparts. Yes, the shadows are 'real' but the 'real' paper stuff often lacks the finesse and refinement of the digital scrap pages. Nevertheless, when printed out they are still flat as a pancake and, in that sense, I agree they can't compete with actual mixed media.

I never thought that there are people so bound by the paper experience that they have to make their digital layouts follow the exact physics of paper scrapping. Like everyone said, as long as it looks cool and is fun to do, who cares!

Enjoying this conversation!

[jensurge]

I like it and actually posted in the gallery here with that effect, so sorry BTW LOL I know there are some things that I like that everyone else is using too but I just try really hard to make mine different from everyone else's in some way. I find it challenging to try and be unique like that. :)

[kygirl]

Jen, you brought up an interesting point.

I think this whole discussion is really about people who are trying to be different (and in the case of many Quirks, celebrating that difference) and those who are really trying to be the same. They want their layouts to look like others so they're actively searching for the newest trend, so they can be a part of it.

Me? I ride the fence. For my CT work, I'll follow every trend, but when I come here, I let my hair down and just do what I want.

(And, Kim, if I can't promote my own grandson, who can? LOL)

[Nevermore]

I swear (cross my heart) that this will be my last post here, honest.

Donna, your summary of the thread may be accurate and probably reflects the discussion the op wanted to have.

In true Raven fashion, I have carried on throughout on a different topic which just happened to have been illustrated by the op.

My point is the definition of paper scrapping vs. digital scrapping. Some people could care less if they ever got defined and I nod to them. I do care, just because I am that kind of person and it strikes me as a fascinating conversation. It is especially interesting, in my opinion, because it is so new. So it is fun to blether in uncharted territory. I am just the kind of person that thinks that that is fun, too.

I think that they are different art forms (or craft forms if that make people more comfortable). I am fascinated by the digital side of it and would like to see where that can be taken. I think it has been grossly underexplored because of the faux paper style (which I recognise as a legitmate style--but I do not recognise it as the only style and I am not even prepared to say that it should be sine qua non by which digital is "compared").

It is not a question of different or same at all, in my opinion. If everyone started blending their papers, that would be a 100% digital effect that can only be done digitally. Digital scrapping. Just because everyone did it wouldn't make it not digital scrapping. It would be a digital trend. The yawn factor for me is that the vast majority of trends have been faux paper. There are exceptions such as stamping. Digital has it's very own inherent means of stamping that is native to itself as a form. It may have begun as an imitation of paper stamping but it has left those beginnings in the dust.

I am half laughing at myself and my tongue is definitely in my cheek when I suggest people should be selling pixels, not paper. The very terminology is part of the problem a la Orwell in establishing digital as something more than just a "non-messy" way to scrap.

I just want to clarify that I am not elitist--I am a strong advocate of digital work. It is not surprising that a lot of that happens to be quirk stuff. I think quirks wrestle with technique and digital form a lot. That pushes the digital end of things.

[picks up soapbox, walks out of park...]

[kygirl]

I'm trying to think of something totally controversial to type here so that Kim has no choice but to respond. (LOL) But I'll play nice.

On this same line, for those of you who do traditional digital scrapping, do you ever incorporate your Quirk art into your regular layouts. I was looking at some of my MAD stuff and thinking that I really need to expand them to the 12x12 format. If I post pictures of my ancestors in crowns will I be laughed out of the regular galleries?

[happyrobyn]

If I post pictures of my ancestors in crowns will I be laughed out of the regular galleries?
I do it all of the time. Here's a good example: King of the Castle (http://www.scrapbook-bytes.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=131789) I got lots of good comments on that one. However, one I did with wings sits with absolutely NO COMMENTS! LOL! And it is one of my favorites: Angels All Around (http://www.scrapbook-bytes.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=182077)

Oh ... and Kim ... who is this Poe dude? And what's his obsession with Ravens?!

[kygirl]

I remember the King of the Castle layout, but I had not seen the Angels one. Both are awesome. I'll never understand how comments work. Sometimes, I'll just throw a layout together and it will get tons of comments. Then, I'll really work hard on one and feel good about one, and it gets ignored. Too funny.

[Pixeldigger]

Poe, The Raven and Nevermore (http://www.poedecoder.com/Qrisse/works/raven.php)

[SteinwaysMom]

Cool - I never made the connection between Poe's Raven and "Nevermore"...we just need someone named "Lenore" to complete the picture.

I just read this 18 year old male art student, Mitch, was one of the winners in the "HOF" contest. I think this is really exciting because if we have art students getting into scrapping this will inject some really fresh energy and perspective coming into the scrapping world.

http://web.mac.com/mitchellkraft/iWeb/mitchell%20kraft/blog/blog.html

I see scrapping as a form of mixed media art and digital as a form of graphic design...I think once scrapping breaks out of the 'scrapmom layout' box people have put it in, then we'll see some really exciting changes.

Esp w/digital because we aren't dependent on walking into a craft store and being confronted with a limited array of cutesy embellishments and traditional papers....creating with pixels requires a lot less overhead and the development time is a lot more rapid. You don't have to be a superstar with a big paper contract to introduce your designs to the world.

Well that's my soapbox, this conversation is fun!

[Diginellie]

I hope I'm not hijacking this thread but this discussion reminds me how much I hate `labels' and `scrapbooking' is one of them. `Paper' and `digital' are 2 more. I remember once when my husband mentioned to a friend that I did scrapbooking she immediately rolled her eyes. Yet if he had said I did digital graphic design she would have been intrigued or even impressed because she is not computer literate. So I am labelled a retired white middle class menopausal baby boomer and grandmother and this really doesn't describe me at all or give any clues about my creative and spiritual life. Down with labels and stereotypes !! :mad: I was pleased to hear about this young guy who scrapbooks, it's past time we had some males in these forums to balance it all out. :)

[AmyK]

Mmmm, it has been far too long since I checked in here. I can't believe this discussion has been going on for almost a week and I have been missing it! I loved this quote by Donna:

We encouraged people to step outside the box; we just didn't know they were going to step into ours. LOL

I don't have an opinion either way, although I voted YES! Because what I hate is that the intent for realism is there, but the shadowing looks terrible. Yes, I have been spending literal hours trying to master the drop shadow lately. This morning, I finished a layout that had stitched ribbon, flowers up the wazoo, buttons, butterflies, things with wings, notebook paper, cardboard, parts of my photo floating up and out of the frame and doodles. It was totally trendalicious. To be honest, I never would have tried it, if it hadn't been for this site. Strange how that works, eh?

And I totally agree with the stereotypes comment too! In "real life" I am often incredibly embarrassed to say I am a scrapbooker. I just tell people I play on the computer and hope they don't ask me to explain. :p

Oh, and I almost forgot how much I LOVE Raven and her fabulous digital techniques. Mesh. ##### Mraw ha ha haaa!! I like to imagine attaching my special words with *rivets* now. ]] and 2 staples. X